yokelridesagain

[yokelridesagain]

The feasibility depends a lot on you; I don’t think that the admissions committees are going to be too impressed if you excel while retaking pre-med undergraduate courses, but blowing them will certainly doom your application.

Again, one of these special Masters things (BU is Boston Univeristy, by the way) is probably your only hope, and you are going to need to do really, really well.

My thoughts on overseas med schools are posted in several places on these boards. In general, I think you have to be comfortable with having limited choices in specialty and location of your residency to consider one of these places as an option.

[yokelridesagain]

One thing you will learn in science, and in medicine in particular, is that you have to control for confounding factors in interpreting data. There certainly are statistics comparing entrance rates for various undergraduate majors. Psychology, for instance, has a lower overall acceptance rate than biology or chemistry. Biology and chemistry have lower acceptance rates than mathematics or, crazily enough, philosophy. Ergo, become a math or philosophy major?

No. Large numbers of biology applicants are on a “pre-med” track. They tend to average one another out. Small numbers of, for the most part, very targeted people major in math and want to go to medical school.

Yes, there is some weight given to the perceived difficulty of a major. If you major in psychology, I would advise you to excel in your pre-requisites and also to take some higher level biology/chemistry courses (biochemistry, immunology, genetics, microbiology, anatomy) as electives. If you do well in “core curriculum” classes and demonstrate that you can handle higher level work as well, no admissions officer is going to be to concerned about what major is on your degree.

I would not advise taking the bare minimum; admissions aside, if you come to medical school with no anatomy, biochemistry, genetics, or physiology you will be behind most of your colleagues. Medical school is hard enough without being at a disadvantage.

Bottom line: you have to enjoy your major field in college. If biology and chemistry don’t catch your fancy, you’re more apt to lose interest and motivation. That tends to lead to lower grades. Plus, college is supposed to be a time to broaden your horizons…you have the rest of your life to learn medicine.

YokelRidesAgain
BA, History, Enormous State University
MD, US News and World Report “Top 20” Medical School
Resident, USNWR “#1 institution” in specialty

[yokelridesagain]

Simply put, yes.

There are probably better people to ask about this as I’m an American citizen and have no direct personal experience.

However, the basics: most international medical graduates come to the US on J-1 visas. There’s another type of visa (the H1-B, I believe) that is much less restrictive. If you can get a residency program to give you one of these visas then I think you can pretty much stay in the U.S. if it pleases you. I think these have been difficult to come by in after 9-11-2001. In general, ask the program you’re applying to. Many don’t offer them.

With J-1 visas, there’s a requirement that you leave the U.S. to return to your home country for at least two years before obtaining a job in the U.S. There are ways to get this waived, including:

1. Prove that returning to your home country constitutes a present danger to your person (occasionally people from repressive countries do something so politically egregious to their home governments that they have a legitimate asylum claim).

2. Prove that returning to your home country would constitute a severe hardship to your U.S. citizen or permanent resident spouse (i.e., spouse is sole caregiver for incapacitated relative).

3. Prove that being able to stay in the U.S. is “in the national interest”, which only tends to apply if you’re in biomedical research and have “unique” skills.

4. By far the most common, get sponsored by a government agency. This usually entails working in an underserved (i.e. rural or inner city) area for several years, or potentially at the VA (the US hospital system for military veterans).

Many FMGs every year stay in the US by accepting rural jobs, then leave those jobs to work wherever they desire at the end of the contract. You do have to apply for residency in the US (probably involving a consultation with an immigration lawyer), but if you’re not a criminal or a member of al Qaeda that’s generally readily obtainable.

If one is a US citizen or permanent resident and goes to medical school outside the country, none of this applies. If you are a foreign national, however, unfortunately it often isn’t possible to go directly from US residency-fellowship to a desired position.

[yokelridesagain]

For admission to medical school or school itself?

Physician-resident

[yokelridesagain]

Cog-

Unfortunately, admission to medical school is going to be extraordinarily difficult. Many medical schools have an “unofficial” GPA cutoff without which they won’t even review your application. The “Admissions Consultants” here will tell you that your chance of admission to medical school with a GPA of <3 are approximately 2%.

You will need to address your difficulties during undergrad in full detail in your application. I would think that entrance to and excellent performance in a “special Masters” program as at Georgetown or BU where you compete directly against current medical students is your only realistic hope of admission.

Sorry I can’t offer you better news.

[yokelridesagain]

Jens–

Generally speaking, no, it’s not the same thing.

Simply put, many of these Caribbean programs exist primarily to provide medical degrees to U.S. students who can’t get into U.S. programs. A medical degree from Cambridge or the University of Edinburgh is quite a different matter; the primary role of British medical schools is to produce British physicians. Most people would consider the medical systems in First World nations like the U.K., Australia, France, Italy, Germany, etc. roughly equivalent to a US degree.

There are some downsides to being an FMG…visa problems in the post 9/11 world are becoming a fact of life and some program directors don’t want the hassle. If you’re not a US citizen and are looking to move permanently to the US, getting permanent resident status can be quite difficult…this is more of a post-residency problem.

But in general, a medical graduate from a “prestigious” UK university would be competitive with an American graduate. If you are British or had a reason to be in Britain on a long term basis, PDs would naturally expect that you would have gone to school in your “home” country. There are Americans who get into European med schools, and indeed a small percentage of students from some European programs are Americans who couldn’t get into US med schools. The stigma associated with a Caribbean school, however, isn’t usually attached to European grads. Unfair perhaps, but that’s the situation.

[yokelridesagain]

>>The only thing that is required in med school is to simply pass your courses and get a degree, it doesn’t make a difference if you get straight A’s or not.

The above statement is patently false. Your grades (and standardized test scores) in medical school will determine what specialties you will be able to get into. If you want to get a residency (post-graduate medical training) in dermatology, radiology, orthopedics, any surgical specialty, you had better NOT “simply pass your courses”.

If you want to be in a “less competitive” specialty (psychiatry, family medicine, etc.), your grades will still affect where you are able to attend residency.

>>Why is it that I was told it is better to do well in an average med school than it is to do average at a top med school? I need an answer to this because I don’t really know if I want to try for a top 20 medical school or not.

Some residencies (at premiere programs and “premiere” specialties–i.e., the above mentioned) strongly favor people who do well enough to make medical school honor society (AOA). An AOA graduate from a “25-50” medical school might have an advantage applying to some programs over a “top 20” graduate without the same honor. So there is a potential kernel of truth to what you say. Big picture: due to admissions standards, medical schools are filled almost exclusively with people who have been in the top 10 percent in school. It is an immutable fact of mathematics that only ten percent of people can BE in the top ten percent, and ergo most medical students are former top achievers who become average medical students. You would be wrong to assume that there is such a thing as an “easy” medical school: speaking from a probability standpoint, you are more likely to be near the center of the bell curve whereever you go to school; an average student at Harvard would likely be an average to slightly better than average student at, say, Case Western.

A better question is, is the amount of money you will have to come up with for tuition/fees/expenses for four years at an “elite” private medical school (this could easily total $250,000 dollars) really worth the advantage you will get from it? For some professions like law and business, the answer is easy: YES. For medicine, it may not be because the residency also plays an important role and jobs in medicine are more decentralized. If you or a benefactor you expect to pay for medical school has enough money that the above figure is no object then absolutely I would “try for a top 20 school”. Otherwise, it’s a judgment call.

Physician-resident

[yokelridesagain]

SixFive-

Sorry for your difficulties. In response to your questions:

1) Yes. Many people get in on the second (or third) try and you seem to have done things to improve your application.
2) Caribbean-No, with a close to competitive GPA from a “top 25” university and a 36 MCAT you should be able to get into a US medical school with a well constructed application. DO-Sure, you can look into it. DO grads can get into virtually anything, although derm would be a stretch and I wouldn’t count on an acceptance letter from radiology at MGH. BUT…DO schools have their own unique history and culture and they usually do not like people who come to their interviews without some kind of comprehension of and believable interest in osteopathy. (“Um, I think your sister’s pretty but she’s too good for me so I’m asking you.”)
3) Not unless you can craft a compelling reason as to how that experience shaped your desire to become a physician (assuming you haven’t done that already). Right or wrong, successful performance in a “special Masters” program as at Georgetown or BU would be far more beneficial. Honestly, I’d just try again before considering that.
4) Application, application, application-Have it read early and often by lots of people, preferrably at least one with some experience in med school admissions.

Physician-resident

[yokelridesagain]

I would be very cautious in considering an application to an off-shore medical school as a US citizen. Any one individual’s positive experience (i.e. “residency at fill-in-the blank”) should not be construed as a representation of the average. One certainly should not be swayed by the promotional materials put out by the schools themselves: they certainly are not going to bill themselves by saying “Come to our school and be marginally competitive for marginal residency programs”.

Before considering this you should consider:

1. There are several specialties that are so competitive that the average medical graduate from U.S. MD programs will have a difficult time getting in. If you have your heart set on dermatology, orthopedics, ophthalmology, or neurologic surgery you had better find some way or other to get into a US medical school (post-bacc, “special Masters”, etc.)

2. You can probably get a residency with a Caribbean degree–the question is, is it a residency you really want to have. An offshore degree IS a black mark on any residency application; programs take graduates from those schools because they need to do so to fill–there are about 6000 more residency positions than US MD graduates. However, one would be hard pressed to find a program director who really WANTS to do so. At nearly every medical center save a select few (and by this I mean Hopkins, MGH, UCSF, perhaps a few others) there are at least a few lousy programs that have trouble filling because of mismanagement, working conditions, etc. I went to a medical school that is routinely ranked in the “top 20” by US News: we had one department that took Caribbean graduates with some frequency in the “scramble” because they were never able to fill in the match with people they wanted. Reason? It was a bad program. Good centers have bad programs. “One person is doing his residency at Vanderbilt” is all well and good–I would sure inquire as to whether a residency in “blank” at Vanderbilt is a desirable thing.

3. If you do go to one of these schools, make sure there are opportunities for substantial US clinical experience–and you had better perform smashingly on clinicals as well as the boards. You’re going to be in the “foreign medical graduate” pool and believe me, there are a whole lot of people from China and the Indian subcontinent who are going to be bringing 250/99 Step 1/2 scores to the table.

I really don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade; however I do think you should have a realistic understanding of what’s going to be available for you as a graduate of one of these schools. Most off-shore grads who get US residencies go into primary care fields in community (i.e. non-academic) programs. If what you really want is to be a family med doc or general internist in private practice and you can live with limited choice in where you do residency this is a viable option. On the other hand, if you get into a US program and excel you can be competitive for essentially any residency.

Bottom line: U.S. medical school admission wouldn’t be so brutally competitive if it wasn’t worth it.

[yokelridesagain]

Definitely agree with above by mside.

In the first place, if you look at US M.D. programs alone there are relatively few places with “entering class lows” on the MCAT greater than 25. Admittedly, there are likely several mitigating factors favoring those who get into top 25 schools with MCATs in the mid 20s…however, it’s certainly not impossible. I don’t know what your particular situation is; if you went to a non-competitive lower tier state college and you have absolutely no extracurriculars nor a demonstrated interest in medicine then your assessment of “no chance of US medical school” may be correct.

With a more characteristic applicant profile…if you live in one of the unfortunate states without a connection to a public medical school and would only be applying privately, you may indeed have a fairly low chance as well. If you do have residence in a state with a state-supported medical school connection I would certainly apply with some expectation of admission.

DO programs are wise to the fact that “less competitive” students view their institutions as “backup plans” and at the very least you would be wise to know something about the philosophy of osteopathic medicine and be able to explain why it appeals to you in a coherent fashion if you want to apply to one of them.

That being said, a DO from an American program is far more valuable than a Caribbean MD; I would only apply to foreign programs after exhausting US options several years in a row (unless you’re a resident of a foreign nation; that might provide justification for your attendance at one of that nation’s medical schools–even then I’d be careful). With a Caribbean doctorate, there are several specialties that I would regard as hopeless for you: among them, dermatology, orthopedics, ophthalmology, neurologic surgery, urology. Radiology and general surgery would be very tough as well. As for the rest of specialties, the best programs won’t give a Caribbean graduate the time of day, the next tier may interview you but will rank you low, and the rest will leave you hoping for a spot in U.S. medical Siberia or at a program with serious problems.

I won’t universally condemn Caribbean graduates; however, you should only go that way with a realistic view of your future. US residency in the specialties that will accept you, at a place that will accept you. Your chances of an academic career with that profile: low. If you want to be in private practice for sure, if you need to start med school right now for personal reasons, if you don’t much care where you end up working, and if you’re okay with a likely career in primary care then and only then would I consider an offshore program. If all of those don’t apply, I would honestly urge you to look into PA or nursing programs before going the offshore route.

Physician-resident

[yokelridesagain]

In Marks’ case, the AP question is irrelevant. As a ChemE major, he will have a ton of chemistry credits. The general chemistry requirement encompasses just that, general chemistry. It does not refer to 101-102 sequences alone.

Physician-resident

[yokelridesagain]

Tennis Gal–

From what you’ve described, I think you have a fighting chance of getting into a US M.D. program. When I went to medical school, one percent of my classmates had Division I college athletic experience; I have never talked to anyone who said that their medical school was loaded with “jocks”. I don’t think that medical school AdComs give preferential treatment to college athletes.

What athletics does give you is a ready demonstration of your ability to apply yourself to something other than school and succeed at a high level. Unless one has a numbers profile in the range of 4.0 GPA, 40 MCAT, applications to med school without significant extracurricular experience are going to lead to rejections. In your favor, you seem to have participated in several activities over and above your athletic experience. That should be a major boost to your application.

Your biggest deficiency is clearly your MCAT score; indeed, some of the more selective institutions are unlikely to grant you an interview because of it. With a well crafted application that highlights your strengths, however, you should be competitive at several schools. Tips:

1. DON’T try to explain away your MCAT score-you don’t want to talk about your weakest point at all. If the AdCom decides to give your application more than a 15 second review, they’ve already seen your score and decided that it’s not a disqualification. So don’t remind them about it.
2. DON’T imply that you would have done better (i.e. 4.0 rather than 3.9, 29 rather than 25) if not for your athletic participation. Your GPA is well above average for accepted applicants. Don’t portray a strength as a weakness.
3. DON’T emphasize the political organization too much if it’s anything remotely controversial (i.e., anything other than “College Students for Tort Reform in Medical Malpractice”). Your place as founder of Students for Kerry (or Bush) will NOT make the arch-conservative (or liberal) chairman of the AdCom happy.
4. DO emphasize your extracurricular activities, explaining what you learned from them and how those experiences tie into your desire to be a physician.

Good luck.

[yokelridesagain]

With a GPA close to (really, lower than) the average mark for accpted medical school applicants, one would need an MCAT close to or better than the average mark for accepted candidates (~27)) to be a reasonable candidate from a numbers standpoint alone. Getting into any American medical school (MD or DO) with the profile you describe is very unlikely.

With a better score on the MCAT (say, a rise of 10 points), who knows? The question any applicant with a low score needs to ask him/herself is WHY that happened. The MCAT, by the way, is far less a test of knowledge than it is a test of reading comprehension. You need to take the prerequisite courses to “speak the language”, but it’s a misconception to think that “studying more” is going to significantly raise your score unless you tried to take the test with wholly inadequate preparation (didn’t take the classes, didn’t review at all).

Is your girlfriend coming from a non-traditional learning environment (i.e., another country, home-schooling) where she has had minimal exposure to standardized testing? Is English not her first language? Does she have an undiagnosed learning deficiency (i.e., dyslexia) that could compromise her performance? I’ve known people with all of these issues who have done poorly on the MCAT but done fine in medical school.

All of the above circumstances also have remedies that can improve scores significantly (take practice courses, work on English language skills, get proper accomodations in the case of a learning disability). If, on the other hand, the score is a reflection of intrinsic ability to read long, highly complex passages and understand them in a brief period of time, one has a major problem. That ability is essentially what defines a medical school curriculum. Putting aside all issues of intrinsic fairness in the admissions process, it has been my experience that MOST students who managed to get into med school with MCATs in the low 20s or below have tremendous difficulty with the curriculum and eventually with being able to pass the medical licensure exams.

Physician-resident

[yokelridesagain]

Well, I can address the specific attire sections of your question, in addition to a (perhaps) reassuring anecdote.

In anatomy, you will almost certainly be required to wear scrubs; however, I can’t imagine much of a wardrobe police in an anatomy lab so you could likely wear an undershirt without too much difficulty. Most anatomy labs are cold, so it might not even seem unusual. More to the point, in the unlikely event that anyone running the course cared, you’re graded on objective criteria anyway.

You cannot wear non-standard attire into the OR. You will wear surgical scrubs and keep the lower arms bare and sterile. That being said, you will also be wearing a surgical gown if you’re scrubbed in which covers you from shoulders to hands anyways. So, no one would see your body art except in the time period between scrubbing your hands and putting on the gown.

It is probably a good idea to keep it covered during the actual interview.

In closing, though, there is more variety in appearance at these places than you probably imagine. In my medical school class, one student had tattoos quite literally covering both arms from shoulder to mid-forearm. I’m currently a resident at what is probably the stodgiest institution in the United States in terms of attire, and my last attending had a nose ring.

Physician-resident

[yokelridesagain]

In terms of your three questions…

1. As far as course requirements, this differs from school to school. I applied to medical school in Texas, which has limited applicability as the state schools don’t participate in AMCAS. English credits from high school were fine there…you really have to ask the schools you’re interested in about what they’ll accept.

2. As I said on another board, the verbal sections include graduate level passages on subjects that most applicants will NOT have studied in depth. Time magazine is currently written on a 10th grade level (if that) and the passages in there will be far less sophisticated than those you will see on the test. The inner sections of the New York Times or The Economist might come closer to the real thing. In any case, prior practice with prepared passages will help if you’re uncomfortable with tests of reading comprehension.

3. Worry less–MUCH less–about the written section than the rest of the test. The written portion of the MCAT is rubbish and any admissions officer worth his or her salt knows that. The task is (as stated in more detail in an earlier post) to evaluate a mindless platitude such as “Advances in technology have progressed beyond humankind’s ability to use them wisely”. You are given forty minutes or so to produce an essay–anyone who has ever written anything halfway decent knows that it is impossible to produce good copy in forty minutes. The real goal is to prove that you are literate in the English language and capable of following directions. Many applicants, sadly, fall into difficulty on both grounds. Trying to write sophisticated prose here will do almost all applicants more harm than good–you will end up misusing words and your subjects will not agree with your verbs. Moreover, spending five minutes trying to flesh out a brilliant thought in your head is just a waste of time. These essays are being read by standardized graders who are looking for, simply, a coherent structure and a lack of grammatical errors. They read through these in less than five minutes…no deep thought is committed here.

Spend five minutes brainstorming–come up with a coherent system of thought, no matter how seemingly facile, and run with it…no doubts. No one expects earth-shattering writing on such drivel anyway. The best tip I have is that the MCAT people actually publish every possible question stem for the the test…I just picked several of these at random and set up the same timed conditions as on the actual exam as a form of practice. How much you should do of this is dependent upon your skill as an essay writer. In any case, the goal on this section of the test is NOT to hurt yourself. No admissions committee is going to discard your 37 score if you have an average score on the written portion, nor will a top score excuse a 25…if you bomb this section though, you give them a chance to have second thoughts about an otherwise worthy application.

Physician-resident

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