Medical School Admittance

[Adruidan]

Hi, I have a few questions on whether I should be worried about which Medical School I go to. I have recently been accepted by a mid-level medical school, but I have a few first-tier medical schools on my mind. I have had very few interviews, albeit I did apply to relatively difficult schools. I graduated from Whitman College in Washington and took a year off to spend some time with my little brother because his father died recently. My undergraduate information is:

3.897 Cumulative GPA
3.975 Science GPA
29Q MCAT Score (10V, 9P, 10B)
I have 1 year of research and I wrote an honor’s thesis that will be parially published soon. I have worked in the medical field for nearly 2 years now and have volunteered at both of the hospitals in my hometown, and am currently volunteering at both while working two jobs at medically based facilities.

First, why do you think I have received few interviews? The schools I am most interested in are the University of Washington, OHSU, UCSF, Rochester, Emory, Dartmouth, Vanderbilt, and John’s Hopkins. However, I have received interviews from only one at this point and have been rejected by two. Moreover, I did not study for my MCATs, and did take it in August of 2003, so I am late in the application cycle and know I can do better. Should I study up, retake them, reject my acceptance to the mid-level school, and reapply?? I am going to be 23 in April. Also, what do you think of Jefferson, Creighton, U of Maryland medical schools?

[stanford_med]

there could be a number of reasons why you’re not getting many interviews or secondaries. While your GPA is great, your MCAT isn’t so hot. A score below a 30 makes it tough; couple this with a relatively unknown undergrad school (i know, it’s not fair, but undergrad schools are even given qualifier points) means you likely were weeded out by a simple computer program.

However, if you are indeed getting secondaries but just not interivews, then the other place to look are your letters of rec. They are extemely important in pretty much all phases of the application process after the primary AMCAS. Try to get an idea of what your profs are saying about you.

And of course, go ahead and call the schools and ask why you weren’t interviewed. Many times they’ll tell you, esp if you contact the admissions members- not just the secretary.

as for your real question, turning down a medschool acceptance (any medschool) is risky, even with a better mcat score. most people will say one in the hand is better than two in the basket. But if you’re confident that you can break 30, then i say go for it. medschool reputation makes a large difference when determining what kind of competitive residency you have a shot at.

[Adruidan]

Whitman is ranked as the best and most intensive undergraduate institution in the Northwest and is consistently ranked in the top 30 in the nation, so although it isn’t well known outside of those who must know how colleges rank nationally, it is a very good school. Currently only 3 liberal arts schools on the west coast rank as high or higher than Whitman, and not one Northwest school comes close. So I know it isn’t my school. I graduated #1 of every science major at Whitman in 2003, and the average MCAT scores for premeds at Whitman are around 35, with 2002’s average physical science score a 14. I just didn’t study <slaps himself>. My only problem is I know I can score higher, 33+ easily, but should I take this acceptance (Creighton) over an opportunity to go to a school like the University of Washington that is consistently ranked in the top 5 medical schools nationally?

[stanford_med]

I didn’t mean to put down your school or anything. I just meant that in the admissions world, rightly or wrongly, there are probably 10-15 nationally recognized undergrad schools that get some bonus points (either literally or figuratively). Only Wash U in st. louis has regional evaluators to make sure the admissions committee is familiar with the undergrad schools (to prevent exactly this problem – when someone doesn’t know much about a college and assumes it’s just ok, nothing outstanding).

But in any case, your science gpa and success in science classes are great. and hopefully this translated into great letters of rec. so it’s sounds like it’s an mcat issue (which also may have affected the quality of your letters of rec). a 29 isn’t competitive so i’d take them again and forgo creighton. also keep in mind that if you’re a west coast guy and want to come back to the west coast for residency, it’s infinitely easier if you’re already on the west coast for medschool. going from creighton to say stanford for residency is much harder than from univ of wash. even more so, going to univ of wash for medschool makes it much much easier to stay at UW for residency.

[brandonw_395]

Are you saying an MD from a good East Coast school won’t be able to head west for residency? I thought someone who graduated at the top of the class could have a lot of flexibility with selecting a residency in terms of specialty and geography.

[stanford_med]

Anyone who graduates at the top of their class will have a lot of flexibility, but most people aren’t at the top. By definition, most will be in the 25th to 75th percentile, and these are the people that will benefit most from geographic bias.

Interestingly enough, if you’re a highly qualifed west coast med student, then that makes it paradoxically more difficult to get into an east coast residency. Historically, top california medstudents don’t leave CA if they have a choice. So east coast residency directors are always skeptical about seriously considering these kinds of students.
Me and my classmates always got the same tired all question: “You’re from Stanford huh? that’s a nice area. Do you REALLY want to leave or are we just wasting our time?” to convince them that you’re genuinely interested, it helps to have personal ties to that geographic area- family, grew up there etc. (for the sake of residency, midwest is considered the same as east coast)

[Adruidan]

So are you saying that Creighton is not a very good school? I know quite a bit about it, including that I do not see it one anyone’s list of outstanding medical schools. The University of Washington listed me as competitive post-interview, and they do know the quality of my institution. Students from Whitman with any chance at medical school usually score around 35 on the MCATs, but at the same time, most of them don’t take a year off from school and then take the MCATs without reviewing some material. Nevertheless, most competitive Whitman students get accepted to the University of Washington and other outstanding schools such as Johns Hopkins, Duke, and OHSU. A 29Q cannot be the deciding factor on whether I would make a good physician, albeit I know it may sway some schools to question my drive–considering that, comparatively, my GPA is so much higher (especially my science GPA) then my MCATs, one would most certainly conclude that I did not prepare adequately. But, in my honest opinion, spending 4 years working hard at a quality institution should be a more accurate measure of my work-ethic then spending a few months preparing for a standardized exam.

[stanford_med]

you’re entirely right…the process is arbitrary and capricious. And unfortunately, you’re right in the middle of some of the more unfair aspects.

As for your question, Creighton is a solid medical school. There really are no bad medical school in the united states since all 100 are held to such high national standards. There’s the top 30 and everyone else is pretty much the same. if you’re highly confident you have a shot at a top 30 school, including UW, by increasing your MCAT, then i say go for it. It’s definitely not the safer path, but hey, shoot for the stars, right? Besides, it sounds like you’re a northwest/west coast guy so you’ll be happier staying closeby.

[thymol_blue]

It is certainly not a requirement to go to a West Coast school to match into a West Coast residency position. Similarly, the “ranking” of medical schools has much less significance in the match than the student’s individual performance as evidenced by USMLE Step I scores, clinical rotation grades, AOA status, and letters of rec. You don’t have to take my word for any of these assertions, you can verify this for yourself. Take a look at the matchlists for places such as UCSF, Stanford, U. Washington, and you will see that their residents come from medical schools across the country. Take a look at the Creighton matchlists; you’ll likely see matches all over the US. Case in point: The chief neurosurgery resident at Stanford went to medical school at the Univerity of Texas at San Antonio (lower ranking than Creighton). Another of the Stanford neurosurgery residents went to the University of Louisville in Kentucky. The chief resident for radiation oncology at Johns Hopkins Hospital went to a Caribbean medical school. Again, performance in medical school and on the boards is far more important then where you go.

Adruidan: The reason you arent’t getting interviews is because there is such a mismatch between your MCAT scores and your gpa. It may have raised questions as to the quality of your undergrad school in the minds of adcom members. Since the MCAT is the only standard measure that schools can use to make admissions decisions, it is weighted heavily. A lower gpa but with a high MCAT score can acually redeem a weaker application, but the other way around, as in your case, will hurt you. Just go to Creighton; you’d only be wasting a year by taking the MCAT again for some empty bragging rights for going to a “top ten” school (also the UW was ranked 11th by US News, not “top five”). You can match into any specialty you want to and go anywhere you want to go from Creighton. If anything, there should be no excuse for you not being at the top of your class at Creighton (which would help you immensly in the match) since it is only a “mid-level school”. Finally, it’s not over yet for you at UW. You can still get pulled off the competitive pool and even if that doesn’t happen and you end up on the waitlist, they regularly pull 25 people off the waitlist every year so your chances are hardly zero.

[Adruidan]

I have seen that argument on these boards before, and I don’t understand it. Basing the quality of my institution solely on my GPA vs. my MCAT scores does not make sense. As I said before, Whitman students that have 3.5+ GPAs regularly score around a 35 average on the MCATs, I just went in with too much confidence knowing I graduated #1 out of the premeds, and that they had done well one the MCATs (I took a year off before I took them). Hence, if the admissions committee at each medical school is as smart as they should be, they would look at the reputation and these averages, not simply judge my institution on my individual performance. In fact, the class of 2002 from Whitman averaged a 14 on the physical section of the MCATs, so I am sure many of these institutions must know the discrepancy in my scores are not reflective of Whitman College’s quality.

[stanford_med]

I wouldn’t count on admission committee members either a) being that cognizant of how tough your undergrad school might be b) taking the time to figure out why and how your MCAT score would be an aberration.

Thymol blue and i disagree about your next course of action. If your only choice is Creighton or retaking the MCAT to reapply, then i would reapply if you’re confident about breaking a 33 – even though I know this is certainly the minority opinion.

While it is true that applicants from any medical school can technically get into any speciality at any residency, that doesn’t mean all medical students are perceived equally. Sure, if you’re the best at your school, then you’re set. If not, then several other factors play a role, including geographic bias. Another crucial factor are the faculty members at your host institution. One of the most powerful tools for getting into a competitive speciality are having powerful, well-known people to back you – through letters of rec and personal phone calls. And for better or worse, these guys at the top of the field are buddies with other guys at the top, and they all tend to cluster at the generally more well known medical centers. and quite often, they conduct themselves with significant regional nepotism.

In any case, I would agree that doing well in medical school is of course paramount, but everything else being equal, you would do yourself a huge favor by going to the more prestigious institution.

[Adruidan]

I just got into the University of Washington too, which one should I go to, Creighton or the University of Washington? UW is ranked much more highly, but from what I saw at Creighton, it’s more condusive to a learning atmosphere–nice middle sized town with a very cooperative student body rather than competitive like UW. I know it is ultimately up to me, but I want to know what everyone thinks. Also, from what I know about Creighton, 85% of the residencies obtained are from a very large alumni network, and are suppossedly amongst some of the more prestigous residencies in the nation. I don’t know if that is just Creighton’s propaganda, or if it is really as good as they say.

[stanford_med]

I’m not exactly sure what Creighton is referring to when they say 85% of the residencies are obtained from an alumni network. But it definitely confirms what we all know to be true – often times, it’s who you know that matters.
That being said, I’d pick UW. I think it will open more doors for you (assuming you think you’ll be happy there). If you can get a hold of their match list, that might also be instructive.

[brandonw_395]

Congrats Adruidan! That’s not a bad dilemma to have. Most everything I have heard (no offense stanfordmed) says your class rank is more important than the school’s rank. Ceterus paribus (sp?), a top 10% at a lower school is median at a higher school. I say go where you feel most comfortable and where you think you will perform best. IF that is a competitive place, go to UW. I don’t think you can go wrong at either school.

[alexinrowland]

What are some Universities that medical schools pay more attention to?

[Author]

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