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[frazzled]

quote:

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Originally posted by twu
The unfortunate thing is, as far as I understand, MIT is on a 5.0 grade point scale and a 3.5 translates into a sub-3.0 GPA at most other undergraduate colleges on a 4.0 grade point scale. What is sort of in your favor is that you attend one of the toughest colleges and undergraduate programs in the United States.

The numbers we know from the AAMC data available show that the middle fiftieth percentile of students who matriculate (not accepted) into the nation’s medical schools have a cumulative GPA of 3.56, a science GPA of 3.55, and MCAT scores somewhere between 29 to 30. Given that, according to some of the data tables available, if we were to just look at your GPA alone, people like you make up less than 10-15% of matriculated medical students.

The MCAT, however, can help mitigate your low GPA. I can’t tell you what score will be the magical number that whisks you into medical school, but I can tell you to shoot for well above 30. Keep in mind the fact that 1) it sounds as if you have excellent extracurricular activities under your belt, 2) that you will likely be able to snag great letters of recommendation from these activities/experiences, and 3) you attend a tough college with a tough program.

Being an Asian, the only minority considered “overrepresented,” is something of a disadvantage in med school admissions. Being a woman, fortuantely for you, is a plus.

Good luck.

Timothy Wu, MD
AdmissionsConsultants
703.242.5885

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Sorry, I phrased that wrong: I’m a 3.5/4.0 (or 4.5/5.0). How does that change things? I’m really worried because the averages at top schools are around 3.8, and I don’t know whether they take into account that I’m at MIT and not my state school, etc. I’m also not sure how my recommendations will turn out.

Being a woman helps? But the entering classes seem to be heavy in women – over 60% at some schools…

And do you have an opinion about my chances at a MD/PhD program versus MD?

Thanks so much for all your help!

[twu]

quote:

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Originally posted by ngolden

I forgot to mention that my husband only took 3 premedical courses at the community college (1 semester of physics, and the biology sequence). He is a chemistry minor (and anthropology major) at U of F so he has taken many science courses at the university. His grades at the university in the sciences are all A’s with a B+ in physics 2 lab (1 credit). In fact, he received a very nice recommendation from one of his organic chemistry professors at U of F.

With these numbers, how difficult is it really to overcome lack of clinical experience? He does have 1 year of experience in a lab researching colon cancer. Is it unlikely that he will be accepted into our state schools even if he does not make it into the higher schools he has applied to (he is early in the application process so we have no responses yet)?

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It is clearly in his favor that he has taken the majority of his science classes at U of F and not at the community college. It is also clearly favorable that he has done well in those classes.

The admissions committees care about a lot more than just grades and MCAT scores though. In fact, at our company’s annual meeting this past month, one of my colleagues from Johns Hopkins told me that he did not recall his school admitting a single applicant with a perfect MCAT score.

The letter of reference will be most helpful if it substantiates an accomplishment, highlights a strength, mitigates a weakness, or advances one of your husband’s application themes. In other words, just having a letter of reference that states favorable things about an applicant is not nearly as helpful as most people believe it to be. After all, there is a lot of self selection for letters of reference and the vast majority of applicants will submit letters of reference that are extremely favorable towards their candidacies.

Timothy Wu, MD
AdmissionsConsultants
703.242.5885

[twu]

quote:

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Originally posted by frazzled
Sorry, I phrased that wrong: I’m a 3.5/4.0 (or 4.5/5.0). How does that change things? I’m really worried because the averages at top schools are around 3.8, and I don’t know whether they take into account that I’m at MIT and not my state school, etc. I’m also not sure how my recommendations will turn out.

Being a woman helps? But the entering classes seem to be heavy in women – over 60% at some schools…

And do you have an opinion about my chances at a MD/PhD program versus MD?

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Again, two data points on the grand scheme of things is really not that significant. I realize that the culture of the premedical education places heavy emphasis on MCAT scores and GPAs, but as I’ve already mentioned, there are perfect 4.0s and MCAT scores above 40 out there are routinely get rejected from the brand name med schools, the local state medical college, and even the osteopathic medical schools. Numbers are just the tip of the iceberg and it’s really the overall application that gets one in — not just the GPA and MCAT. A 4.5/5.0 from MIT, again a very competitive undergraduate program, is an excellent GPA and will not be a hindrance to your getting into a top flight medical school.

Being a woman helps and the numbers you’re seeing today, namely 60% at some medical schools, are only a recent development. When I was in medical school, most classes were no more than 40% female. You ladies have come a long way and are expected to steam roll over men as your group is continuing to be favored by AdComs.

MD/PhD programs are generally more difficult to get into because there are 1) fewer spots, 2) the few spots available are 100% funded (both the MD and PhD parts are paid by the institution), 3) the self-selection process tends to pit top notch premeds against other similarly credentialed premeds. Knowing little else about your application, I can’t tell you how competitive you’d be for an MD/PhD program. All things being equal, however, it’ll be much tougher to get into an MD program than the medical scientist training programs.

Coincidentally, one of our consultants is an MD/PhD and specializes in medical scientist hopefuls. If you’re interested in assessing your candidacy with him, please give us a call.

Good luck.

Timothy Wu, MD
AdmissionsConsultants
703.242.5885

[frazzled]

Thanks, Dr. Wu, for all your help!

[eveovirus]

Hi, I have one quick question. I did poorly on my MCAT(a 30) and am applying to MSTPs. Should I tweak my personal statement somehow to get them to look passed my MCAT since I don’t take standardized tests well? My GPA is 3.99 at a large research university, and I have participated in clinical internships and extensive research(even awarded a fellowship). I also am a music minor, president of a nationally recognized organization, and work two jobs.

[mchang]

Hello,

(Apologies for the multiple posts in the “Admissions” discussion board. I’m afraid I’m a bit desperate right now!)

I’m an English major whose first-choice medical school is Yale University. I had intended to apply early decision to that school because its student culture and curriculum approach was exactly what I was looking for. The first time I took the MCAT (August 2003), I made a 31S (12V, 11B, 8P). Hoping to make up for the PS score, I took the test again in April 2004. Though I was slightly sick on test day, I didn’t feel like I had done badly…until I got my scores back yesterday. The verdict, a 29R (11V, 9B, 9P), nearly stopped my heart when I saw it. Not only did I not have a competitive score, but it was also *lower* than my first MCAT attempt! My practice test average is a 32-33, so I really don’t know what happened.

I do have a high GPA (3.94) and a strong extracurricular and scholastic profile (many awards, clinical activities, etc.). I know I can write a killer personal statement, but I’m now wondering if the admissions people will even consider the rest of my application with my terrible MCAT scores.

What should I do? If I take the MCAT again, it’ll be my third attempt. I do have a long string of other schools I’m applying to, but I really want to go to Yale. Should I go ahead and send in my application for this year, or should I wait one more year and enroll in an MCAT course in hopes of getting a better score?

Thanks,

Mchang

[twu]

quote:

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Originally posted by eveovirus

Hi, I have one quick question. I did poorly on my MCAT(a 30) and am applying to MSTPs. Should I tweak my personal statement somehow to get them to look passed my MCAT since I don’t take standardized tests well? My GPA is 3.99 at a large research university, and I have participated in clinical internships and extensive research(even awarded a fellowship). I also am a music minor, president of a nationally recognized organization, and work two jobs.

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I’m not sure what you mean by “tweak” and how, exactly, would you accomlpish that. If you plan on even using a portion of your personal statement for the purpose of addressing a perceived “flaw” on your application, you’ve done little more than amplify that “flaw” and drawn the AdCom’s attention to it.

A 30 is not a bad score. In fact, 75% of all medical students today scored no higher than a 30.

It sounds like you are otherwise qualified. I can’t comment much on whether or not you’d be competitive for an MSTP as that, like regular admission to med school, depends on a whole lot more than just the GPA and MCAT.

As I mentioned earlier, if you’re interested having your candidacy assessed by one of our MD/PhD consultants, give us a call.

Timothy Wu, MD
AdmissionsConsultants
703.242.5885

[eveovirus]

Thank you, Dr. Wu. []

[twu]

quote:

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Originally posted by mchang

The first time I took the MCAT (August 2003), I made a 31S (12V, 11B, 8P). I took the test again in April 2004. The verdict, a 29R (11V, 9B, 9P).

I do have a high GPA (3.94) and a strong extracurricular and scholastic profile (many awards, clinical activities, etc.). I know I can write a killer personal statement.

What should I do? If I take the MCAT again, it’ll be my third attempt. I do have a long string of other schools I’m applying to, but I really want to go to Yale. Should I go ahead and send in my application for this year, or should I wait one more year and enroll in an MCAT course in hopes of getting a better score?

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I can’t account for why you didn’t do as well as your practice tests were predicting, but I can shed some light on your question of takign the MCAT again.

We know from extensive data compiled by the MCAT writers, MCAT experts, and the AAMC itself that applicants tend to have many repeat performances on the MCAT. In other words multiple attempts usually garner negligible differences in MCAT scores, despite the alleged studying that takes place in between administrations!

With a few exceptions, the only time I ever encourage re-taking the MCAT is if the first attempt resulted in an obviously poor score. Your initial score of 30 means that you have acquired a score that pits you somewhere near ther 75th percentile of all enrolled medical students in AAMC-accredited institutions. That’s nothing to toss away.

Yale’s School of Medicine is an excellent institution (obviously), but understand that many, many applicants yearly are turned away from places like Yale with perfect 4.0 GPAs and MCAT scores greater than 40. Does this mean you have ZERO chance of getting into Yale? Of course not.

If you take the MCAT a third time, I can tell you that, at best, you’d score 1 or 2 points higher than your initial score of 30. This, again, is based on data we have from the AAMC. You won’t be getting the 34-36 typical at places like Yale.

But, let’s say you do get a 36 on the next attempt. Well now you’ve confused the heck out of the AdCom. The AdCom’s left to wonder, “Which is the real Mchang? The 30? The 29? Or the 36?” The only thing you really will have accomplished is wasting hundreds of dollars on registering for the MCAT.

Apply with what you have now, polish your application so that it’s sparkling, and hope for the best. GPAs and MCATs are only a portion of your application. There’s a lot more that contributes to your overall candidacy than jsut two numbers. Prepare your application expertly and I believe you will be in medical school come Fall. I just can’t promise you Yale.

Good luck.

Timothy Wu, MD
AdmissionsConsultants
703.242.5885

[mchang]

Dr. Wu,

Thanks for your reply! Getting the 29 was a pretty horrifying experience, but you’re right. I’ll just have to work on polishing up the other aspects of my application…

One more thing, however. I was intending to apply EDP (when I thought I would have a higher score), but now that my scores aren’t that great, should I just consider applying with the general pool?

Again, thanks for your help!

Mchang

[twu]

quote:

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Originally posted by mchang

One more thing, however. I was intending to apply EDP (when I thought I would have a higher score), but now that my scores aren’t that great, should I just consider applying with the general pool?

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EDP rarely increases anyone’s chances at a particular medical school. I only recommend EDP to someone who’s sure that he wants to go to a certain medical school and had the absolute right application to get in. Otherwise, you’re setting yourself up for trouble when you apply EDP.

And to answer your follow-up question of, “What sort of trouble?” it has mostly to do with application timing. By the time admissions decisions from EDPs are handed down, it’s pretty late in the cycle. Not passing any deadlines, of course, since if you’re rejected you now have to go back into the regular decision pool, but being rejected EDP puts you dangerously close to those deadlines. You’ve put yourself at a disadvantage once being rejected EDP because you’ll be filing regular decision applications with other medical schools at a much later point in the cycle.

Good luck to you.

Timothy Wu, MD
AdmissionsConsultants
703.242.5885

[mchang]

Thanks, Dr. Wu. Your responses have helped a lot!

Mchang

[mchang]

I hate to weave a more tangled web around my low MCAT scores, but I’m also coming to the chilling realization that I may have screwed up in putting together my basic science curriculum in college (no, I didn’t have a good premed advisor). Here are the classes I have in question:

1 yr. Biology: Molecular Biology and Human Physiology, both w/lab (I’ve never taken intro. biology)

1 yr. Chemistry: Accelerated Gen Chem. w/lab (squeezes Gen Chem 1 & 2 into one semester)

I am seriously thinking of delaying my med school application one year to take an intro. biology sequence and a biochemistry course. During that time, I’m also thinking of taking a Chemistry 2 course to add one more semester to my Gen. Chem credits. I graduated from college young (age 20) and have been passing the time by taking science writing internships (next one’s at the Centers for Disease Control).

I’ve had a nagging feeling through this past year that my MCAT scores could have been even better (maybe even 34-36) if I had a little more science under my belt (I’m an English major). Seeing that I’ve already taken the test twice (scores: 31S & 29R), do you think a 3rd attempt would be wise after I’ve taken the extra classes?

Thanks,

Mchang

[eveovirus]

This is kind of similar to what you and mchang were discussion with a tiny temporal twist.

I have been emailing some of the MSTPs on my list, presenting them with the scenario of my 30 MCAT but 3.99 GPA and extensive extracurriculars, leadership, reseach, etc. Some of them have suggested to go ahead and apply. However, some of these same schools also suggested I retake the MCAT in August and still apply. Should I retake it even if it would delay my application until November? (I was scoring between a 35 and 36 on my practice runs prior to the April MCAT) Thanks for your help! []

[twu]

quote:

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Originally posted by mchang

I’ve had a nagging feeling through this past year that my MCAT scores could have been even better (maybe even 34-36) if I had a little more science under my belt (I’m an English major). Seeing that I’ve already taken the test twice (scores: 31S & 29R), do you think a 3rd attempt would be wise after I’ve taken the extra classes?

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As I stated earlier, if you take the MCAT a third time, I can tell you that, at best, you’d likely score 1 or 2 points higher than your initial score of 30. This, again, is based on data we have from the AAMC. You won’t be getting the 34-36 typical at places like Yale.

As for taking extra science courses, you need one year of a particular science. Squeezing a year’s work into a semester doesn’t count as a year. Taking extra science courses can’t hurt unless you do poorly, but the real question is, do you really want to?

Timothy Wu, MD
AdmissionsConsultants
703.242.5885

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