How do you guys feel about Affirmative Action?

[noumena]

I suppose I am neutral or simply undecided on this issue, so I won’t comment on Affirmative Action; nonetheless, I have quite a minor, though funny, contretemps I’d like to relate:

During my sophomore year at Princeton, one of my floor neighbors was a black guy. He was a very likable guy, and I often would go over to his dorm very late at night and stay up and watch NBA basketball with him. One time, we were looking at a football website, which listed underneath each prospective high school athlete the colleges to which they had been extended admission offers, and along with that, their SAT scores. At any rate, on one athlete’s profile, seeing that he was extremely coveted just by glancing at the number of very prestigious schools that had openly pursued him, such as Berkeley, Stanford, and BC, I expected his SAT score to have been at least a 1200. However, upon seeing that it was barely 900, I offhandedly remarked that it was a pretty pathetic score, –an awkward silence– after which my roommate rather indignantly remarked that his was scarcely better. I had the rather unenviable task of having to conceal my horror at finding out it was not the case that everyone at Princeton came in with at least a 1400 SAT score, and at the same time try to explain myself out of the situation; but in the end, I admitted to him that I had been not only unaware of AA, but that I had also been insensitive. If I didn’t apologize enough, my very visible discombobulation let him know how truly sorry I was.

Anyway, I was unfamiliar with Affirmative Action then, and so I guess I should not feel so bad about it.

[imincognito]

quote:

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Originally posted by noumena

I suppose I am neutral or simply undecided on this issue, so I won’t comment on Affirmative Action; nonetheless, I have quite a minor, though funny, contretemps I’d like to relate:

During my sophomore year at Princeton, one of my floor neighbors was a black guy. He was a very likable guy, and I often would go over to his dorm very late at night and stay up and watch NBA basketball with him. One time, we were looking at a football website, which listed underneath each prospective high school athlete the colleges to which they had been extended admission offers, and along with that, their SAT scores. At any rate, on one athlete’s profile, seeing that he was extremely coveted just by glancing at the number of very prestigious schools that had openly pursued him, such as Berkeley, Stanford, and BC, I expected his SAT score to have been at least a 1200. However, upon seeing that it was barely 900, I offhandedly remarked that it was a pretty pathetic score, –an awkward silence– after which my roommate rather indignantly remarked that his was scarcely better. I had the rather unenviable task of having to conceal my horror at finding out it was not the case that everyone at Princeton came in with at least a 1400 SAT score, and at the same time try to explain myself out of the situation; but in the end, I admitted to him that I had been not only unaware of AA, but that I had also been insensitive. If I didn’t apologize enough, my very visible discombobulation let him know how truly sorry I was.

Anyway, I was unfamiliar with Affirmative Action then, and so I guess I should not feel so bad about it.

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[imincognito]

An interesting experience. I have been in the military for the majority of my life so I’ve met many people from many walks of life. I work for the U.S. Army now. I serve soldiers going to various locations throughout our great empire. Of those, I find the African soldiers the most interesting. These people ended up coming from different areas of Africa; Nigeria, Chad, Senegal,…etc. I always ask them how they view the American “Black” experience. Curiously enough ALL of them, without exception, disdain American negros. They look upon them as trash and wonder how they ever got to the point where now they’re worshiped in America. See, I don’t really care that they were enslaved. If you go back far enough in history, every ethnic group had been enslaved at some point, so having been enslave doesn’t merit much consideration from me. The quote from Mr. King, above?…well…he was just begging. The worst thing you can do to a person is give them “freebees” because you think “Poor Rascal” he/she is so dumb…here you go, you poor thing. For one thing, it demeans that individual. Even those who did get that “Leg-Up” and took advantage of the opportunity given them, they, forever, will know that on their own, they would have never achieved what they achieved. That, in turn, strips them of their dignity and self-worth. that is why, whenever you see blacks in the media, they’re always having to make some remark about, “see, I did it on my own. Without ‘Whitey’s’ help”, or pumping-up their race, “Coming To America” was a very interesting movie with Eddy Murphy, about being some kind of “undercover” royalty. At the Army PX, I see t-shirt vendors with MLK and Malcom-X. All of them replete with silly slogans designed to bolster the racial self-image of blacks. They call themselves “African-Americans”, but if you’ve ever spoken to any black soldier who took part in President Clinton’s little debacle in Mogadishu, Africa, they would tell you that they are proud to be Americans and “please don’t call them African-Americans” What needs to occur in America is that we need to quit pandering to these people who are from racial minorities. White, Indo-Europeans are very quickly becoming the minorities in this nation due to uncontrolled immigration and dilution of their genetics with that of other races. I am appalled when my daughters come home, from grade school and high school, with garbage about “Harriet Tubman” and MLK; it turns my gut. I have to “re-educate” both of them to the real history of these people; Harriet Tubman was a property thief, Martin Luther King was a showboating, plagiarizing, adulterer, propagandist who pretended to be a reverend while the whole time slipping it to all those nasty white women, (not his wife). Princeton admissions strives to get a diverse cultural demographic of student, as do all other schools, whether they be law schools or medical schools, or whatever. Affirmative Action covers-over the true successes of whichever race makes it to these top institutions. It is a philosophy of insult and it really sends the message, “You’re not smart enough, but I’ll let you have it anyway because it’s my Christian duty to do so”

[ebonylaw]

quote:

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Originally posted by imincognito

An interesting experience. I have been in the military for the majority of my life so I’ve met many people from many walks of life. I work for the U.S. Army now. I serve soldiers going to various locations throughout our great empire. Of those, I find the African soldiers the most interesting. These people ended up coming from different areas of Africa; Nigeria, Chad, Senegal,…etc. I always ask them how they view the American “Black” experience. Curiously enough ALL of them, without exception, disdain American negros. They look upon them as trash and wonder how they ever got to the point where now they’re worshiped in America. See, I don’t really care that they were enslaved. If you go back far enough in history, every ethnic group had been enslaved at some point, so having been enslave doesn’t merit much consideration from me. The quote from Mr. King, above?…well…he was just begging. The worst thing you can do to a person is give them “freebees” because you think “Poor Rascal” he/she is so dumb…here you go, you poor thing. For one thing, it demeans that individual. Even those who did get that “Leg-Up” and took advantage of the opportunity given them, they, forever, will know that on their own, they would have never achieved what they achieved. That, in turn, strips them of their dignity and self-worth. that is why, whenever you see blacks in the media, they’re always having to make some remark about, “see, I did it on my own. Without ‘Whitey’s’ help”, or pumping-up their race, “Coming To America” was a very interesting movie with Eddy Murphy, about being some kind of “undercover” royalty. At the Army PX, I see t-shirt vendors with MLK and Malcom-X. All of them replete with silly slogans designed to bolster the racial self-image of blacks. They call themselves “African-Americans”, but if you’ve ever spoken to any black soldier who took part in President Clinton’s little debacle in Mogadishu, Africa, they would tell you that they are proud to be Americans and “please don’t call them African-Americans” What needs to occur in America is that we need to quit pandering to these people who are from racial minorities. White, Indo-Europeans are very quickly becoming the minorities in this nation due to uncontrolled immigration and dilution of their genetics with that of other races. I am appalled when my daughters come home, from grade school and high school, with garbage about “Harriet Tubman” and MLK; it turns my gut. I have to “re-educate” both of them to the real history of these people; Harriet Tubman was a property thief, Martin Luther King was a showboating, plagiarizing, adulterer, propagandist who pretended to be a reverend while the whole time slipping it to all those nasty white women, (not his wife). Princeton admissions strives to get a diverse cultural demographic of student, as do all other schools, whether they be law schools or medical schools, or whatever. Affirmative Action covers-over the true successes of whichever race makes it to these top institutions. It is a philosophy of insult and it really sends the message, “You’re not smart enough, but I’ll let you have it anyway because it’s my Christian duty to do so”

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wow, ignorance still plagues are country. Your daughter will have a hard time fitting in at school with such biased views from you. I’m mixed and I’m offended from what you said. I hope you have no plans on being a lawyer. All you’ve said was false and you know it. I doubt you ever talked to that black kid. Dumbass, Nigerians don’t say that about Blacks, plus most Blacks prefer Black over being called African American anyways.

[Anonymous]

quote:

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Originally posted by ebonylaw

quote:

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Originally posted by imincognito

An interesting experience. I have been in the military for the majority of my life so I’ve met many people from many walks of life. I work for the U.S. Army now. I serve soldiers going to various locations throughout our great empire. Of those, I find the African soldiers the most interesting. These people ended up coming from different areas of Africa; Nigeria, Chad, Senegal,…etc. I always ask them how they view the American “Black” experience. Curiously enough ALL of them, without exception, disdain American negros. They look upon them as trash and wonder how they ever got to the point where now they’re worshiped in America. See, I don’t really care that they were enslaved. If you go back far enough in history, every ethnic group had been enslaved at some point, so having been enslave doesn’t merit much consideration from me. The quote from Mr. King, above?…well…he was just begging. The worst thing you can do to a person is give them “freebees” because you think “Poor Rascal” he/she is so dumb…here you go, you poor thing. For one thing, it demeans that individual. Even those who did get that “Leg-Up” and took advantage of the opportunity given them, they, forever, will know that on their own, they would have never achieved what they achieved. That, in turn, strips them of their dignity and self-worth. that is why, whenever you see blacks in the media, they’re always having to make some remark about, “see, I did it on my own. Without ‘Whitey’s’ help”, or pumping-up their race, “Coming To America” was a very interesting movie with Eddy Murphy, about being some kind of “undercover” royalty. At the Army PX, I see t-shirt vendors with MLK and Malcom-X. All of them replete with silly slogans designed to bolster the racial self-image of blacks. They call themselves “African-Americans”, but if you’ve ever spoken to any black soldier who took part in President Clinton’s little debacle in Mogadishu, Africa, they would tell you that they are proud to be Americans and “please don’t call them African-Americans” What needs to occur in America is that we need to quit pandering to these people who are from racial minorities. White, Indo-Europeans are very quickly becoming the minorities in this nation due to uncontrolled immigration and dilution of their genetics with that of other races. I am appalled when my daughters come home, from grade school and high school, with garbage about “Harriet Tubman” and MLK; it turns my gut. I have to “re-educate” both of them to the real history of these people; Harriet Tubman was a property thief, Martin Luther King was a showboating, plagiarizing, adulterer, propagandist who pretended to be a reverend while the whole time slipping it to all those nasty white women, (not his wife). Princeton admissions strives to get a diverse cultural demographic of student, as do all other schools, whether they be law schools or medical schools, or whatever. Affirmative Action covers-over the true successes of whichever race makes it to these top institutions. It is a philosophy of insult and it really sends the message, “You’re not smart enough, but I’ll let you have it anyway because it’s my Christian duty to do so”

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wow, ignorance still plagues are country. Your daughter will have a hard time fitting in at school with such biased views from you. I’m mixed and I’m offended from what you said. I hope you have no plans on being a lawyer. All you’ve said was false and you know it. I doubt you ever talked to that black kid. Dumbass, Nigerians don’t say that about Blacks, plus most Blacks prefer Black over being called African American anyways.

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Our or are? I’m sure you got into law school purely on merit.

Allow me to educate YOU about Africans. There is a big difference between west Africans (the origin of former slave African Americans) and east Africans.

East Africans do better in school and careers than West Africans when they live in white countries. That fact isn’t lost on them. They also evolved differently. They don’t have the large nostrils and some of the other physical features of the West Africans.

They don’t like being lumped in with West Africans any more than Persian Iranians like being lumped in with Arabs.

[GML]

It’s important to look at the practical reality of affirmative action in college admissions. Students who are perfectly able to succeed at less competitive schools are admitted into elite institutions where they’re not prepared to perform. Affirmative Action launches many minority students into failure, where they could have done great at another school. For those minority students who could have been admitted through their own merit, admission as a minority is an insult, since they and everyone else will always assume they were admitted for something other than merit. Justice Clarence Thomas wrote of his regret for having included his race on his application to Yale Law. Only after graduating did he realize that the degree meant one thing for a white guy and another thing for a minority.

[bebok21k]

Blacks don’t do as well because of their dark skin color. Oh wait, there are a lot of very dark skinned Indians who do well.

Well, they don’t do as well on standardized tests so what does that tell us? The tests are racists. But only against blacks and hispanics not against Asians or whites.

Well blacks are over represented in many professional sports so they must be better athletes. Becuase this is a pro black statement it can’t be racist.

The fact they don’t do as well academically or in office careers must be racist because we can’t say one group is better than another. Unless of course we’re talking about blacks being better at sports. Then it is OK.

Affirmative action just solidifies the above in everyone’s heads.

[twehnagbe]

I have read intensely the variation of opinions concerning the very touchy subject of affirmative action.I purposefully considered the the rationality and analytical constructs of both arguments.Base on this paradigm i have concluded the following:
Analytically, both arguments can surmice.With out going into the anatomy of the arguments, those who support affirmative action can make a reasonable case.If in fact the kind of disenfranchisement that was perpetrated againt the negro race can be quantified and assigned a figure to which the perpetrator(american government) is indebted, creating a program like the affirmative action in order to satistfy such agression,should not be questionable and unreasonable.On the otherhand, instituting the policy of affirmative action does not occur in a vacuum. It affects white people lives almost in similar manner as discrimination,therefore there is a legimate concern on there part. To dimiss their concern and label them as racist due to their opposition to affirmative action is unfortunate.
I strongly believe that this question should not and can not be settled on the field of philosophical ideologies, instead it must be settled in hearts and minds of peace loving an equity seeking americans.The past has occured,we can not go back into time and undo what has been done. The only opportunity we have is the present in which we must endeavor to create a world that will be conducive for our children.
It is then the responsibility of the white race to recognize the injustice of the past and see affirmative action not as reverse racism but as a governmental scheme to attempt to equalize the inequities that is pervasive in the american society today. Anything short of this sympathetic posturing,will only create doubt and suspision from supporters of affirmative action.In like fashion,it is inexcusable for the black race not to take advantage of this policy with the knowledge that is is definite and protracted to allow for total euality. To expect affirmative action to releive the black race of the responsibility to persevere, industrialize and apply themselves to the best of their God given talent will be a sorry mistake.
In conclusion, i admonish those who sit on both sides of the fence not to dig trenches and remain dogmatized to a certain mentality.I encourage you to see fronm a human perspectiver where the other view is coming from. If this is done affirmative action will not be seen as a threat nor a birth right.

[Ben017]

The problem with affirmative action is that it removes the concept of individual rights with group entitlement. This is morally unfair.

Also, instead of colorblindness it promotes race consciousness and resentment.

There is also a major flaw in the idea that you can have equal outcomes. You can aim for equal opportunity, but to have equal outcomes everyone must be equal. This is obviously not the case. For instance it is well documented that Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians, if you look at group averages, perform better than other groups academically.

People try to explain this by culture, but transracial adoption studies point away from a culture explanation. For instance, East Asians raised in white households still, on average, do better on psychometric tests.

Also, there is evidence in terms of Ashkenazi Jews that their academic achievements aren’t purely due to culture. See the paper by Cochran, Hardy & Harpending, “Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence, Journal of Biosocial Science 38 (5), pp. 659–693 (2006).

If group differences are intractable (note that I’m talking about group averages, it doesn’t imply much about individuals) then equality of outcome is impossible without coercion or overlooking merit.

[pppppppp]

quote:

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Originally posted by noogles

Casey, maybe your European friends can’t understand your explanation because you’re unable to explain it to them coherently or from an unbiased perspective.

Perhaps if you said that there were persons who, for 400 years, were raped, systematically discriminated against and, if these persons picked up a book, were at times even threatened with death, your friends might understand that universities and the US government were trying to make up for past injustices through normative policies. State and federal government in the US turned a blind eye to the intimidation and illegal treatment that black people experienced, pre-1970. The best US universities denied admission to qualified black applicants for years. Even the best and the brightest blacks could not win jobs commensurate with their talents (look up Dr. Charles Drew and see if he was ever able to teach at a top-notch medical school like Harvard’s).

In the aftermath of our government’s “blind-eyeism”, a culture that accepted failure ensued within the black community. This coping mechanism evolved in order to dull the pain caused by the futility of being an ambitious black person in a prejudiced white society. An anti-culture formed, and blacks decided that shooting for success was tantamount to “acting white”. It’s a shame, but black students who are academically gifted must choose between books or alienation by the vast majority their black peers. Whites and Asians don’t face the same cultural dilemma, at least not of the same magnitude, that blacks do. Because government and policy and university admissions had a direct hand in creating this problem, the government and universities of today are doing what any responsible entity would do – they are accepting accountability for their transgressions, and thus are trying to ameliorate the problem to which they contributed.

An analogy: if the government dumped toxic waste in your back yard and each successive generation of your family died of toxin-induced cancer, wouldn’t you ask for help beyond a simple toxic waste clean-up? Indeed, you would ask for considerable reparations that went beyond the clean-up of the toxins, reparations that addressed the illness caused by the waste. This is what the government is trying to do when it comes to affirmative action. A responsible government pays its debts. The policy of affirmative action is not trying to hurt you, personally. Affirmative action is not perfect in practice, but it does not deserve the assinine and poorly-reasoned rants of “reverse racism” coming from semi-literate bigots. My guess is you are merely echoing the rants of your parents, and for this i forgive you.

FYI: Nearly every first world country practices some form of affirmative action, and even some developing nations utilize affirmative action programs. Even China has affirmative action programs that give leniency to individuals from impoverished provinces.

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pat

[pppppppp]

I am sure his european friends understand, “please” just look at the jewish people, nobody has been hated more. Do they need help? No my friend it is intellect, you either have it or you don’t. No crying, “PLEASE”

pat

[wjclinton5000]

The only thing I hate about affirmative action is the people it doesn’t apply to – rich old white liberals. Those guys got to go to Harvard or Yale when only white men could, and they now sit in congress, run the banks, have high seats in government, etc. Affirmative action doesn’t affect them, so they sit back and lecture the rest of us poor slobs about how righteous they are. My suggestion is anyone who truly supports affirmative action and is a white male should have to suffer some for it to prove they are sincere, pay extra taxes for reparations, give up their own damn jobs, etc. or otherwise, STFU!

[bryaniam]

Some loaded statements in here. No wonder there’s only about 1 reply for every 700-800 views!

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